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September 16, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
Proposition 200, Colorado River Indian Tribe's Gaming Initiative
which would require new tribal gaming compacts with the governor;
Learn more about Proposition 200 on the Election 2002 Web site.
"Stories of Arizona" profile of Bob MacCall, Arizona's space artist
In-Studio Guests:
Dennis Patch, Member of the Colorado River Indian Tribal Council;
Jason Rose, Spokesman for Yes on Proposition 200

>> MICHAEL: TONIGHT ON "HORIZON" PROPOSITION 200 WOULD ALLOW CASINOS TO OFFER MORE TYPES OF GAMES WHILE CONTRIBUTING MONEY TO THE STATE FOR SCHOLARSHIPS AND SENIOR HEALTH CARE. PLUS, HIS ART WORK HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS BEING OUT OF THIS WORLD. STORIES OF ARIZONA PROFILES BOB MCCALL. GOOD EVENING, I'M MICHAEL GRANT. WELCOME TO "HORIZON". THIS FALL THERE WILL BE THREE COMPETING GAMING INITIATIVES ON THE BALLOT. ONE SPONSORED BY RACE TRACKS, ANOTHER BY 17 TRIBES AND ONE BY A TRIBE LOCATED ON THE ARIZONA-CALIFORNIA BORDER. IT IS THIS TRIBES' INITIATIVE, PROP 200, THAT WE EXAMINE TONIGHT. PAUL ATKINSON SHOWS US PROP 200 IS AN ATTEMPT TO IMPROVE THE ECONOMIES ON THE RESERVATIONS WHILE GIVING SOMETHING BACK TO THE STATE.

>> Reporter: THE BLUE WATER RESORT ON THE COLORADO RIVER FEATURES A CASINO WITH SOME 450 SLOT MACHINES PLUS KENO, BINGO AND FIVE POKER TABLES. CUSTOMERS ARE LIKE MARGARET RUSH WHO DROVE HERE FROM HER CALIFORNIA HOME.

>> Margaret Rush: I PLAY SLOTS. WE ARE RETIRED AND I THINK IT'S GREAT FOR US. AND I THINK IT'S GREAT FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO GAMBLE.

>> Reporter: IT'S NOT GAMING BUT AGRICULTURE THAT MAKES THE MOST MONEY FOR THE FOUR TRIBES THAT MAKE UP THE COLORADO RIVER INDIAN TRIBES: THE MOHAVES AND CHIMEHUEVI HAVE FARMED ALONG THE COLORADO RIVER FOR CENTURIES. THE OTHER TWO TRIBES, NAVAJOS AND HOPIS, WERE RELOCATED HERE IN THE 1940S BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

>> Annette Brown: WHAT GAMING HAS DONE HAS ALLOWED THE TRIBES TO DIVERSIFY ITS ECONOMY. IT'S BEEN ABLE TO SUPPLEMENT ITS EXISTING BUDGET AND THAT IS ABLE TO THEN ENTER INTO OTHER ENTERPRISE AREAS.

>> Reporter: GAMING PROCEEDS ALLOW THE TRIBES TO BUY A LOCAL SAND AND GRAVEL OPERATION, OPEN A HARDWARE, PLUS BUILD AND LEASE A SHOPPING CENTER. A NEW HEALTH CARE CENTER OPENED LAST YEAR THANKS LARGELY TO TRIBAL MONEY.

>> Jon Via Lobos: WE'VE GOT A LONG WAYS TO GO. BY NO MEANS ARE WE FINISHED.

>> Reporter: JON VIA LOBOS OVERSEES THE 1250 ACRE PRESERVE ALONG THE COLORADO RIVER. PROCEEDS FROM THE CASINO WERE USED TO BUILD A PARK FOR FAMILY GET-TOGETHERS AND TRIBAL CEREMONIES. CASINO PROFITS ARE ALSO AT WORK HELPING REMODEL FEDERAL-BUILT HOUSING ON THE RESERVATION.

>> Annette Brown: FOR MANY YEARS, INDIAN PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE POOREST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY. WHEN INDIAN GAMING CAME ALONG, IT ENABLED TRIBES, THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO START BUILDING AN INFRASTRUCTURE TO BRING A LOT OF THE SUBSTANDARD LEVEL THAT TRIBAL MEMBERS HAVE BEEN IN TO PAR WITH THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

>> Reporter: OVER THE PAST DECADE, THE NUMBER OF COLORADO INDIAN TRIBAL NUMBERS LIVING IN POVERTY HAS DROPPED FROM 28% IN 1989 TO 22% TEN YEARS LATER. THE STATEWIDE AVERAGE IS 10%.

>> Jon Villa Lobos: WE STILL HAVE A LONG ROAD AHEAD OF US, AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE PROP 200 COMES IN.

>> Reporter: PROPOSITION 200 IS SPONSORED BY THE COLORADO RIVER INDIAN TRIBES. HERE'S WHAT IT CALLS FOR AND HOW IT'S DIFFERENT FROM CURRENT INDIAN GAMING COMPACTS. PROPOSITION 200 WOULD CREATE A 20-YEAR GAMING COMPACT WHICH THE TRIBE CAN AUTOMATICALLY RENEW FOR ANOTHER 20 YEARS. RIGHT NOW TRIBES HAVE ONLY A 10 YEAR COMPACT. PROPOSITION 200 WOULD ALLOW EACH TRIBE UP TO THREE CASINOS. UNDER THE CURRENT GAMING COMPACT TRIBES CAN HAVE FROM ONE TO FOUR BASED ON POPULATION. PROPOSITION 200 WOULD ALLOW EACH TRIBE TO HAVE FROM 1000 TO 1400 SLOT MACHINES TOTAL. THOSE NUMBERS CAN INCREASE BASED ON THE STATE'S POPULATION. CURRENTLY, TRIBES CAN HAVE UP TO 475, 900 OR 1400 MACHINES OVERALL BASED ON TRIBAL POPULATION. PROP 200 ALSO ALLOWS TRIBES THAT DON'T CURRENTLY OFFER GAMING THE ABILITY TO EXCLUSIVELY TRANSFER THEIR ALLOTMENT OF SLOTS TO OTHER TRIBES CASINOS. AFTER FIVE YEARS ALL TRIBES CAN TRANSFER SLOT MACHINES AMONG CASINOS. TRANSFERRED SLOT MACHINES DON'T COUNT AGAINST THE CASINO'S DESIGNATED NUMBER OF MACHINES. CURRENTLY TRIBES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TRANSFER SLOT MACHINES. PROP 200 ALLOWS EACH CASINO TO OPERATE UP TO 20 HOUSE BANKED TABLE GAMES, INCLUDING POKER, BLACKJACK, CRAPS, BACCARAT AND ROULETTE. RIGHT NOW, TRIBES CAN HAVE UNLIMITED NON-HOUSE BANKED POKER TABLES, BUT NOT BLACKJACK, CRAPS OR OTHER LAS VEGAS-STYLE GAMES.

>> Annette Brown: THE BOTTOM LINE IS, ANY EXPANSION IN THE GAMING GAMES OFFERED, WHETHER IT BE THE SLOTS OR TABLES, IS GOING TO BE MARKET DRIVEN. THE SLOT MACHINES THEMSELVES, THEY'RE NOT CHEAP, THEY ARE QUITE EXPENSIVE. SO THE TRIBE ISN'T GOING TO INVEST IN THAT TYPE OF EQUIPMENT THEY KNOW THEY'RE GOING TO GET THE RETURN.

>> Reporter: PROPOSITION 200 REQUIRES TRIBES TO MONITOR, REPORT AND INVESTIGATE VIOLATIONS. RIGHT NOW, VIOLATIONS MUST BE INVESTIGATED AND REPORTED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF GAMING. PROP 200 REQUIRES EACH TRIBE TO PAY PART OF THE NET CASINO PROFIT TO THE STATE. THE MONEY WOULD BE DEPOSITED WITH THE TREASURER TO BE SPENT ON THE FOLLOWING: 75% ON UNIVERSITY COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND TRIBAL COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIPS. 14% ON STATEWIDE PROGRAMS FOR SENIOR HEALTH CARE. 5% TO TRIBES FOR SENIOR HEALTH CARE. 5% TO TRIBES FOR EDUCATION. AND 1% TO THE STATE FOR ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS. PROP 200 COULD BRING IN $32 MILLION ANNUALLY, AS ESTIMATED BY LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL. RIGHT NOW, TRIBES DO NOT SEND ANY MONEY TO THE STATE FOR SUCH PROGRAMS.

>> Annette Brown: THERE'S 18,000 COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIPS THAT WOULD BE CREATED, AND THAT'S NOT ONLY FOR THE UNIVERSITIES, BUT INCLUDING COMMUNITY COLLEGES AND TRIBAL COLLEGES. ELDER HEALTH CARE, THAT FUND IS PROJECTED TO INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF FUNDING FOR ELDER HEALTH CARE AT LEAST $6 MILLION, IF NOT MORE.

>> Reporter: NEGATIVES ASSOCIATED WITH PROPOSITION 200. BECAUSE IT EXPANDS GAMBLING, IT WOULD INCREASE COMPULSIVE GAMBLING, WHICH LEADS TO DIVORCE, CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT, AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. PROPOSITION 200 REDUCES REGULATORY OVERSIGHT BY HAVING TRIBES REGULATE AND INVESTIGATE THEMSELVES, NOT THE DEPARTMENT OF GAMING. UNDER PROP 200, TRIBES DO IN THE HAVE TO DISCLOSE HOW MUCH MONEY THEY MAKE, SO THERE IS NO WAY TO INSURE THE STATE IS GETTING 3% OF NET PROFITS AS PROMISED. AND OF THE THREE GAMING INITIATIVES ON THE BALLOT, PROPOSITION 200 PROVIDES THE LEAST AMOUNT OF MONEY TO THE STATE.

>> MICHAEL: JOINING ME NOW IS DENNIS PATCH, A MEMBER OF THE COLORADO RIVER INDIAN TRIBAL COUNCIL. ALSO HERE IS JASON ROSE, SPOKESMAN FOR YES ON PROPOSITION 200. AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD TO SEE BOTH OF YOU. DENNIS, TELL ME WHY PEOPLE SHOULD VOTE FOR PROPOSITION 200 INSTEAD OF THE OTHER TWO.

>> Dennis Patch: I THINK OUR PROPOSITION GIVES THE FULL BENEFIT OF INDIAN GAMING TO ALL ARIZONANS. IT REMAINS FAITHFUL TO THE INTENT OF INDIAN GAMING. IT LEAVES THE MAJORITY OF THE MONEY ON THE RESERVATIONS TO HELP INDIAN BUILD THEIR COMMUNITIES IN TERMS OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, ALSO THE JOBS, AND REDUCES POVERTY AND GETS PEOPLE OFF WELFARE. IN ADDITION TO THAT, WE SHARE IN ARIZONA, WE'RE GOING TO GIVE APPROXIMATELY 18,000 SCHOLARSHIPS TO ALL ARIZONANS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN ELDER HEALTH CARE. I THINK WE KEEP THE STATUS QUO IN REGULATION AND DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT GOES TO ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF GAMING FOR REGULATION.

>> MICHAEL: GAMING DEPARTMENT DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOU, ARIZONA SUPREME COURT DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOU ON REGULATION. BOTH SAY PROPOSITION 200 SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKENS THE AMOUNT OF OVERSIGHT THE STATE HAS OVER INDIAN GAMING. ARE THEY WRONG?

>> Dennis Patch: I THINK THE ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF GAMING WAS WRONG, THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT RULED IN FAVOR, IT DOESN'T SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE REGULATION.

>> MICHAEL: THEY SAID THEY AGREED WITH THE PROPOSITION THAT IT REDUCED REGULATION BUT THEY FELT THAT THE BALLOT PHRASING WAS INCORRECT. IT DOES ALLOW THE TRIBES IN THE MAIN TO MONITOR THEMSELVES, DOES IT NOT, AS OPPOSED TO THE GAMING COMMISSION.

>> Dennis Patch: THE PROPOSITION IS PRESENTLY IN, IT'S WHAT THE ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF GAMING DOES NOW, IT DOESN'T REDUCE REGULATION AT ALL. AS A MATTER OF FACT, LIKE I SAID, IT DOUBLES THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT GOES TO THE DEPARTMENT OF REGULAR GAMING FOR REGULATION.

>> MICHAEL: JASON, LET'S GO WITH THE JOE ARIZONA PITCH. WHY DON'T I DO THE MATH AND SAY THE LAST THING THAT I WANT TO VOTE FOR IS PROPOSITION 200, WHICH DELIVERS ONLY 30 MILLION AS OPPOSED TO THE MAJORITY TRIBES' 80 MILLION OR SO AND THE TRACKS' ALLEGED 300 MILLION?

>> Jason Rose: INDIAN GAMING IS ABOUT INDIAN SELF-RELIANCE. ALL THREE MEASURES SAY WE WANT TO HELP ARIZONA'S NATIVE AMERICANS. I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU DO THAT WHEN YOU TAX THE HECK OUT OF THEM. THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF INDIAN GAMING WAS TO IMPROVE FUTURES FOR NATIVE AMERICANS ON THE RESERVATIONS. THAT'S WHAT WE DO BY LEAVING MOST OF THE MONEY IN PARKER AND SELLS. IT REDUCES WELFARE. IT IS SO PURE IN ITS INTENT TO SAY WE WILL CONTINUE TO IMPROVE INDIAN GAMING TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE RATHER THAN SOLVE A POLITICIAN'S PROBLEM IN PHOENIX WHO WANTS TO GROW GOVERNMENT AND BALANCE THE BUDGET ON THE BACKS OF PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD IT THE LEAST.

>> MICHAEL: ISN'T THE STATUS QUO DOING THAT? WE JUST SAW IN THE PACKAGE THAT THERE'S BEEN SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENTS IN THE TRIBAL ECONOMY AND TRIBAL FACILITIES AS A RESULT OF GAMING. WHY EXPAND IT?

>> Jason Rose: ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT'S BEEN DONE FOR RURAL TRIBES NEEDS TO GO TO SUPAI, NEEDS TO GO TO PARKER, NEEDS TO GO AND SEE THE WORK THAT HAS TO CONTINUE THERE. THAT'S ONE OF THE KEY ELEMENTS OF 200, THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME NONGAMING. RURAL TRIBES WILL BE ABLE TO SELL THEIR ALLOTMENT AND BENEFIT FROM GAMING. THAT'S IMPORTANT TO THE NAVAJOS, THE HOPIS, THE SUPAIS SO THAT RURAL TRIBES CAN ENJOY THE BENEFITS OF INDIAN GAMING, TOO.

>> MICHAEL: DENNIS, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT PROPOSITION 200 FROM THE POINT IT EXPANDS THE TYPE OF GAMING THAT GOES ON, YOU MOVE FROM SLOT MACHINES TO NOT ONLY BLACKJACK BUT ALSO ROULETTE, CRAPS, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL THAT MOVES US A LOT CLOSER TO LAS VEGAS THAN ARIZONA WANTS TO BE. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> Dennis Patch: IT ONLY INCREASES TABLE GAMES TO 20 GAMES. I THINK THE OTHER PROPOSITIONS INCREASE IT HIGHER. I THINK, FOR EXAMPLE, 202 WAS 75 BLACKJACK TABLES AND FOR URBAN AREAS UNDER 202 THERE'S 100 TABLES. SO IT'S FIVE TIMES AS MANY TABLE GAMES AS WE'RE OFFERING UNDER PROPOSITION 200.

>> MICHAEL: YOU BROADEN THE TYPES OF GAMING AND I THINK YOU HAVE UNLIMITED POKER TABLES, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY UNDER PROPOSITION 200. WHY DO WE FAN OUT TO INCLUDE THINGS LIKE ROULETTE AND CRAPS? WHY IS THAT A GOOD IDEA?

>> Dennis Patch: I THINK THE DIVERSITY OF GAMES AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT CRAPS AND BACCARAT, INDUSTRY STANDARD YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT MANY TABLES. WE ENVISION MAYBE ONE BACCARAT TABLE AND TWO CRAP TABLES AND THE MAJORITY WOULD BE BLACKJACK TABLES. IT'S STILL FIVE TIMES LESS THAN WHAT THE OTHER TRIBES ARE OFFERING UNDER 202.

>> MICHAEL: AM I INCORRECT OR DOESN'T THIS ALLOW 20 OF THESE KIND OF TABLES PLUS THEORETICALLY UNLIMITED POKER TABLES?

>> Jason Rose: SURE IT INCREASES THE TABLES TO 20 GAMES. THE TRACKS PROPOSITION INCREASES TABLE GAMES. 202 INCREASES TABLE GAMES, THEY JUST DO IT FIVE TIMES MORE THAN PROP 200 DOES.

>> MICHAEL: I'M TRYING TO GET TO AN APPLES TO APPLES COMPARISON. YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT 20 TABLES, BUT THE PROPOSITION 202 CAPS IT AT, I THINK, 75. THAT IS BOTH BLACKJACK AND POKER. HERE YOU HAVE 20 PLUS THEORETICALLY 80 POKER TABLES.

>> Jason Rose: I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY VOTERS AT THE END OF THE DAY ARE GOING TO SAY THEY ALLOW CRAPS, THEY ALLOW BLACKJACK, WE'RE GOING TO SPLIT THAT HAIR AND SAY WE'RE GOING WITH BLACKJACK, DON'T THINK THIS IS WHAT THE DEBATE WILL ULTIMATELY BE ABOUT.

>> MICHAEL: WE WANT TO DRAW A LINE SOMEPLACE, WE DON'T WANT ARIZONA BECOMING NEVADA AND IT SEEMS TO ME JUST AS THE TRACKS TAKE THIS THING A STEP BY PULLING IT OFF THE RESERVATION IT SEEMS THERE'S AN ARGUMENT THAT WE'RE TAKING ANOTHER GAMING STEP IN THAT DIRECTION WITH PROPOSITION 200?

>> Jason Rose: WE CONFINE IT TO THE RESERVATION AND INCREASE THE GAMBLING AGE FROM 18 TO 21. I THINK IF YOU WERE TO SURVEY THE PEOPLE WHO GO TO CASINOS, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO PLAY BLACKJACK VERSUS CRAPS, THE DEBATE IS HOW CAN WE MAXIMIZE THE REVENUE TO DO THE MOST GOOD FOR ARIZONA NATIVE AMERICANS. 200 DOES IT. IT' NOT CLOSE WHEN YOU COMPARE IT TO THE OTHER GAMING MEASURES IN TERMS OF WHO DOES THE MOST GOOD FOR ARIZONA NATIVE AMERICANS.

>> MICHAEL: DENNIS, THE CONCEPT OF NET AS OPPOSED TO GROSS AND THE FEELING THAT THE TRIBE OR THE TRIBES, IF PROPOSITION 200 PASSES, SORT OF GET TO DETERMINE WHAT THE KITTY IS OF WHICH THEY TURN OVER 3% TO THE STATE. DOESN'T THAT GIVE YOU AN AWFUL LOT OF LEEWAY THAT GROSS DOES NOT?

>> Dennis Patch: NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO. EVERY YEAR THE TRIBE, EVERY GAMING TRIBE IN ARIZONA TURNS OVER TO THE DEPARTMENT OF ARIZONA GAMING AN AUDIT SO THE DEPARTMENT OF GAMING KNOWS EXACTLY HOW MUCH MONEY EVERY TRIBE MADE EVERY YEAR. IN ADDITION TO THAT, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ALSO HAS AN AUDIT OF EVERY GAMING TRIBE ON THEIR GAMING OPERATIONS. SO I THINK THAT UNDER OUR INITIATIVE, 3% OF THE NET IS AFTER WE PAY OUR JACKPOT PRIZES AND PERSONNEL AND OPERATION EXPENSES WHICH WE BELIEVE IS REASONABLE.

>> MICHAEL: DOES THE RESTAURANT OPERATION BECOME A DEDUCTIBLE EXPENSE AGAINST THE GROSS OF GAMING?

>> Dennis Patch: NO, THIS IS NOT CLASS 3 GAMING.

>> MICHAEL: IN OTHER WORDS, AT LEAST IT HAS TO BE, EXPENSES HAVE TO BE ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE GAMING SIDE OF THE CASINO OPERATION.

>> Dennis Patch: RIGHT.

>> MICHAEL: WHAT'S THE COLORADO RIVER TRIBE'S POSITION ON PROPOSITION 202, THE MAJORITY TRIBES PROPOSAL, IS IT ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO VOTE NO ON 202?

>> Jason Rose: NO IS THE SHORT ANSWER. AND IT IS AN APPROACH TO INDIAN GAMING. IT'S JUST AN APPROACH THAT TAXES NATIVE AMERICANS FOUR TIMES AS MUCH AS PROP 200 DOES.

>> MICHAEL: OVER TWO AND A HALF TIMES.

>> Jason Rose: JUST BECAUSE 17 TRIBES SAY IT'S A GOOD THING DOESN'T MEAN IT'S THE RIGHT WAY FOR ARIZONA TO GO. TWO YEARS AGO, WE HAD ABOUT 17 ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS COME OUT AND SAY THIS WOULD BE GOOD FOR ARIZONA'S ENVIRONMENT. IN FACT, VOTERS REJECTED THAT AND THERE'S NOTHING MAGIC WITH 17 TRIBES OR 87 TRIBES OR ONE TRIBE, IT'S WHAT'S THE BEST POLICY, WHAT ADVANCES THE FUTURE OF NATIVE AMERICANS THE MOST. THERE IS NO DISPUTE.

>> MICHAEL: THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE. JASON ROSE, APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US, DENNIS PATCH, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>>> MICHAEL: HE IS THE OFFICIAL ARTIST FOR NASA AND HIS WORK CAN BE FOUND IN A SMITHSONIAN MUSEUM IN WASHINGTON DC. EACH MONDAY THROUGHOUT THE SUMMER, HORIZON HAS BROUGHT YOU "STORIES OF ARIZONA," PROFILES OF THOSE WHO PERSONIFY THE SPIRIT OF THE STATE. TONIGHT WE END THE SERIES BY LOOKING AT THE FUTURE, THE FUTURE THROUGH THE EYES OF BOB MCCALL. BILL LEVERTON INTRODUCES US TO AN ARIZONA ARTIST WHO GAINED FAME NOT BY PAINTING THE OLD FRONTIER, BUT THE NEW FRONTIER.

>> Bill Leverton: THE NIGHT SKY HAS FASCINATED ANIMALS AND HUMANS ALIKE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. WHAT IS UP THERE? ARE THERE OTHER WORLDS THAN OURS? ARIZONA'S ROBERT MCCALL HAS LOOKED UP THERE AND HAS LET HIS IMAGINATION RUN WILD AND BECOME PERHAPS THE WORLD'S MOST RENOWNED SPACE ARTIST. THESE ARE HIS VISIONS.

>> Robert McCall: THERE IS LIFE.

>> Bill Leverton: HIS JOURNEY TO THE STARS BEGAN IN COLUMBUS, OHIO. IN DECEMBER 1919. NAMED FOR HIS GRANDFATHER, A MEDICAL DOCTOR WHO DIED BEFORE HE WAS BORN, BOB'S FATHER NUDGED HIM TO BECOME A DOCTOR. BOB LIKED TO DRAW THINGS AND BECAME INSTEAD AN ARTIST. HE AND HIS OLDER SISTER WERE RAISED BY A FATHER ALREADY IN HIS 40S WHEN THEY WERE BORN.

>> Robert McCall: HE DIDN'T SWIM, OR OWN AN AUTOMOBILE. A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH WANTING IT SEEMS TO ME. I WANT EVERYTHING.

>> Bill Leverton: RAISED BY A MOTHER WHO THOUGHT HER ARTISTIC SON COULD DO NO WRONG.

>> Robert McCall: WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF SUPPORT FROM A PARENT, IT ADDS TO YOUR OWN SENSE OF SELF-ESTEEM.

>> Bill Leverton: AS A YOUNG BOY, IT THREW HIM FOR A LOOP THE FIRST TIME HE LOOKED THROUGH A MICRO SCOPE IN A BIOLOGY CLASS.

>> Robert McCall: SAW ALGAE, SAW MICROSCOPIC ORGANISMS. THAT IS UNBELIEVABLE, THERE THEY WERE, ALL THE TIME THEY WERE THERE. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT, JUST LIKE WHEN I GOT A TELESCOPE LATER AND LOOKED AT THE HEAVENS AND SAW THE CRATERS ON THE MOON. THESE THINGS JUST BLEW ME AWAY. AND THEN READING ABOUT ASTRONOMY AND THE HEAVENS AND DISCOVER THE PINPOINTS OF LIGHT WHICH WE CALL STARS ARE HUGE SUNS, MOST OF THEM LARGER THAN OUR OWN. AND THERE ARE BILLIONS OF THEM.

>> Bill Leverton: BOB MCCALL WAS FASCINATED WITH AIRCRAFT AND LOVED ADVENTURE STORIES.

>> Robert McCall: I WAS MORE FASCINATED WITH THE ILLUSTRATIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE OFTEN ADVENTURE STORIES AND I WANTED TO MAKE DRAWINGS TO ILLUSTRATE ADVENTURE. BY DOING THE ILLUSTRATIONS, I COULD BECOME PART OF IT.

>> Bill Leverton: AFTER HIGH SCHOOL HE WON A SCHOLARSHIP TO COLUMBUS ART SCHOOL AND THEN WORKED FOR A TIME AS AN ILLUSTRATOR AND COPY WRITER. THEN WORLD WAR II CAME ALONG. BOB WANTED TO BE A PILOT, BUT IRONICALLY FOR AN ARTIST, HE WAS COLOR BLIND. HE NEVER SAW COMBAT. THE WAR ENDED AND HE DID MEET LOUISE.

>> Robert McCall: I MET HER ON A BLIND DATE SET UP BY A YOUNG OFFICER WHO THOUGHT WE WOULD HAVE A RAPPORT SINCE SHE WAS AN ART STUDENT AND I WAS AN ARTIST.

>> Bill Leverton: THEY WERE SOON MARRIED AND ARE STILL TOGETHER OVER 55 YEARS LATER.

>> Robert McCall: I KNOW THAT LOVE HAS GROWN TO THIS INCREDIBLE THING THAT MEANS SO MUCH.

>> Bill Leverton: LOVE OF AIRCRAFT BROUGHT HIM CAREER OPPORTUNITIES. HE DID ILLUSTRATIONS DRAMATIZING THE ATTACK ON PEARL HARBOR. AND EVENTUALLY EVEN FROM PAINTINGS FOR THE MOTION PICTURE TORA! TORA! TORA! BUT THAT WASN'T HIS ONLY VENTURE INTO MOTION PICTURES. EVENTUALLY EVEN HE GOT A CALL FROM METRO GOLDWYN MAYER.

>> Robert McCall: THEY ASKED IF I WAS INTERESTED IN DOING SOME WORK ON A NEW FILM THAT WAS BEING PRODUCED IN LONDON BY STANLEY KUBRICK.

>> Bill Leverton: IT WAS FAR A LITTLE PRODUCTION CALLED 2001, A SPACE ODYSSEY. KUBRICK IS A MAN WHO COULD BE DIFFICULT.

>> Robert McCall: HE IS A PERFECTIONIST, BUT THERE WAS NEVER A PROBLEM BECAUSE SO AM I.

>> Bill Leverton: HE WORKED ON OTHER FILMS BUT THAT WASN'T HIS MAIN INTEREST. IN THE 1960S LIFE MAGAZINE ASKED HIM TO DO A SERIES SHOWING THE FUTURE OF SPACE TRAVEL. NOT LONG AFTER THAT, NASA ASKED HIM TO KEEP A VISUAL HISTORY OF THEIR EFFORTS.

>> Robert McCall: JUST THE EXCITEMENT OF BEING THERE, IT'S INSPIRATIONAL.

>> Bill Leverton: IN 1970, BOB AND LOUISE FELL IN LOVE WITH ARIZONA AND MOVED TO THE HOUSE WHERE THEY STILL LIVE. HE OFTEN USES HIS ADOPTED STATE AS PART OF HIS LANDSCAPE FOR HIS SPACE PAINTINGS. NOT LONG AFTER THEY MOVED HERE, BOB DID WHAT IS THE FAVORITE OF ALL HIS WORKS, A MURAL FOR THE SMITHSONIAN NATIONAL AIR AND SPACE MUSEUM.

>> Robert McCall: I HAD 2100 SQUARE FEET OF CANVASS TO COVER AND THIS VERTICAL SECTION THAT WAS 68 FEET FROM FLOOR TO THE TOP.

>> GOSH. I WANTED TO DO THAT. AND IF THEY HAD OFFERED ME TWICE THE SPACE AND IT HAD TAKEN TWO YEARS OR FIVE, I WOULD HAVE DONE IT. THE MORE THE BETTER, THE BIGGER, THE GRANDER.

>> Bill Leverton: IT IS CALLED THE SPACE MURAL, A COSMIC VIEW. REQUIRED ALL HIS EFFORTS AS A RESEARCHER AND THE HEIGHT OF CREATIVE IMAGINATION TO PULL IT OFF. HE HAS CONTINUED AS THE SPACE ARTIST MEETING ASTRONAUTS AND EVEN GETTING TO TRY ON SPACE SUITS. HE HAS DESIGNED THE EMBLEMS FOR THE SPACE MISSION AND CREATED THE UNITED STATES SPACE POSTAGE STAMP. WHAT DOES THE FUTURE HOLD? HIS PAINTINGS TODAY LET HIM GO WHERE NO ONE HAS GONE BEFORE.

>> Robert McCall: I HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OVER THE ASTRONAUTS AND THE COSMONAUTS WHO CAN'T BE THERE EXCEPT IN RARE INSTANCES WHEN THEY CAN GO A LITTLE DISTANCE LIKE THE MOON. I CAN GO DEEP INTO SPACE, AND I CAN IMAGINE BEING THERE.

>> Bill Leverton: FLIGHTS OUT TO WORLDS BEYOND BELIEF.

>> Robert McCall: SCIENCE FICTION PRECEDED SCIENCE FACT. THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO DESCRIBE WHAT I LIKE MOST ABOUT WHAT I DO. I CONSIDER IT A PROJECTION OF EXISTING SCIENCE INTO THE FUTURE. IF YOU PROJECT MORE THAN A FEW YEARS, YOU'RE IN THE REALM OF SCIENCE FICTION.

>> Bill Leverton: HIS WORK ISN'T ALL ABOUT THE SPACE PROGRAM, THOUGH. HE AND LOUISE COLLABORATED ON A 360 DEGREE STAINED GLASS WINDOW FOR THE VALLEY PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.

>> Robert McCall: THE SUN RISING ABOVE THE CRESCENT EARTH, CASTING ITS VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL BEAMS WHICH YOU CAN SAY THAT'S THE CROSS.

>> Bill Leverton: ONE OF HIS RECENT ACCOMPLISHMENTS, JOINING FORCES WITH OTHERS TO HELP CREATE THE CHALLENGER LEARNING CENTERS.

>> Robert McCall: THERE ARE NOW 30 OF THEM ACROSS THE COUNTRY. THIS ONE IS BY ALL ODDS THE FINEST AND IT'S ORIGINAL FROM THE GROUND UP.

>> Bill Leverton: THE ROTUNDA, CALLED TOUR OF THE UNIVERSE, IS BOB MCCALL AT HIS FINEST.

>> Robert McCall: I WANT THEM TO BE THRILLED WITH THE PROSPECT OR THE THOUGHT OF SPACE EXPLORATION.

>> Bill Leverton: HE SAYS HE WOULD LIKE TO BE REMEMBERED FOR HIS WORK, HIS PAINTINGS, HIS INSPIRATIONS.

>> Robert McCall: I THINK THEY ARE MORE IMPORTANT, MAYBE, THAN THE PERSON. THERE ARE SO MANY WONDERFUL PEOPLE THAT ARE LOST IN OBSCURITY AS THEY PASS ON. I THINK THE ONLY HOPE REALLY IS BY SOMETHING THAT YOU LEAVE FOR A SHORT TIME, BECAUSE IT'S ALL COVERED BY THE SANDS OF TIME IN DUE COURSE ANYWAY.

>> Bill Leverton: SOME DAY, MAYBE SOON, MAYBE LATER, REALITY WILL CATCH UP WITH BOB MCCALL'S FANTASIES AND WE WILL NOT HAVE TO WONDER WHAT IS UP THERE.

>> Robert McCall: WHETHER WE WILL MAKE CONTACT, I THINK IN DUE COURSE WE WILL. AT LEAST WE WILL BE AWARE THAT LIFE EXISTS ELSEWHERE.

>> MICHAEL: TOMORROW NIGHT ON "HORIZON" THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN CITIES AND DEVELOPERS OVER WHAT NEW HOMES AND BUSINESSES SHOULD LOOK LIKE. THEN ON WEDNESDAY, MARICOPA COUNTY WANTS TO EXTEND ITS SALES TAX TO BUILD JAILS. IS THAT NEEDED? THAT WILL BE ON NOVEMBER'S BALLOT. AND OF COURSE ON FRIDAY, WE'LL HAVE THE JOURNALIST ROUNDTABLE, TAKING A LOOK AT THE WEEK'S TOP NEWS STORIES. I'M MICHAEL GRANT. HAVE A GOOD ONE. GOOD NIGHT.