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Transcripts

September 25, 2002

Host: Michael Grant

Topics:
Election 2002: Ad Watch
Arizona Republic's Mary Jo Pitzl discusses The Republic's ad watch articles for the three state gaming initiatives.
· Learn more about Propositions 200, 201 and 202 on the Election 2002 Web site
· Watch the video online [Requires Realplayer]
Historic Florence Courthouse
Florence officials have been awarded money to renovate the historic Florence Courthouse, the oldest continuously used public building in our state. See why the building is in bad shape.

In-Studio Guests:
Mary Jo Pitzl, Arizona Republic

 

>> Michael: Tonight on "Horizon," ad watch. As the election nears, political ads like this one saturate the airwaves. How accurate and informative are they? We look at the claims made in the gaming proposition ads.

>>> Plus, this historic building has been in use since before Arizona was a state. We take a look at the old Florence courthouse.

>>> Good evening, I'm Michael Grant.

>>> Television ads for political campaigns, of course, vying for your vote between now and the election. We are partnering with "The Arizona Republic" to watch those ads and examine the claims made in them. Joining me tonight to talk about her series of reports this week on ads for the gaming propositions, "The Arizona Republic's" Mary Jo Pitzl. First ad we will look at is the one that hit the air first, yes on prop 202, the measure backed by a coalition of 17 Indian tribes. It requires the Governor to approve new tribal gaming compacts and give the tribes one to four gaming facilities, 475 to 1400 slot machines and 75 to 100 card tables.

>> Announcer: Last year the rich out of state dog and horse track owners tried to shut down gaming in Arizona by filing a lawsuit. Now they are pushing a ballot proposition that threatens the future of Indian gaming and would allow racetracks to become giant Las Vegas style casinos, but this fall, we'll vote on another measure that assures a 2 positive future for Indian gaming in our state, proposition 202, the 17-tribe Indian self-reliance initiative.

>> Announcer: The 17-tribe initiative is supported by tribes representing over 90% of Indians on reservations in Arizona. It allows us to have gaming on our own land and provides vitally needed funds for education, housing and healthcare. We hope Arizona voters will support our 17-tribe Indian self-reliance initiative. To get more facts or to find out how you can help, please watch for the voter information we'll be sending you in the mail or contact our campaign coalition. Thank you.

>> Michael: You know, Mary Jo, this one was almost a continuation of the institutional-type advertising that actually the tribes have been running on and off over the past several years or so.

>> Mary Jo Pitzl: Correct. A lot of it is to curry favor to keep the good feelings about tribes going, but they also wanted to do a heads up about what's coming on the fall ballot.

>> Michael: Sort of explain here's what we do with the money and why you should feel good about Indian gaming and those kinds of things. Accurate claims?

>> Mary Jo: Generally, although, the claim that the racetracks want to do giant Las~Vegas casinos is debatable. The racetracks want to have slot machines and slot machines only. Some people think you've got to have blackjack tables and other 3 games to constitute a casino. The racetracks are looking for up to 1,000 slot machines for the tribes. They would allow the racetracks to have up to 950 slot machines. So if it's giant for the racetracks, it's pretty giant for the tribes as well.

>> Michael: The combined ad budgets we're still not completely sure of, but just as of last month, what was the number you were telling me the three campaigns had expended?

>> Mary Jo: As of the last spending period, $14 million as of August 21.

>> Michael: And this buys you -- well, a lot of that went to collecting signatures and organizational efforts and those kinds of things, but take a shot and say we're looking at probably in excess of $30 million?

>> Mary Jo: I would think pretty easily, especially if the early going is $14 million. We've seen a flood of TV ads and we're not out of September yet.

>> Michael: Well, next we'll take a look at the ad for proposition 201, that measure would give the horse and dog tracks permission to operate slot machines. This ad features a fellow you are probably familiar with by now.

>> Jo Arizona: Hi, I don't have cows or tumbleweeds in my yard. I don't wear a 10 gallon hat or a belt buckle the size of a hubcap. I've never see a Jackalope. We're independent. We have our own time zone and we refuse to change our clocks. A cactus is our state flower. We've had four guys run for 4 president, and lose, but we keep trying. We don't have one of the 7 wonders, we have the wonder, and we are the champions, but we've got big challenges like a billion dollar deficit. We have to take a look at these gambling propositions because we don't want to pay more taxes. One gives us back $25 million. One gives us $89 million, but prop 201 gives us back $300 million a year, $300 versus $89 or $25. Do the math. All of them help the Indians, but only prop 201 helps all of us. My name is Joe, and I am an Arizonan. We don't buy that it's a dry heat thing. Thanks.

>> Michael: Joe Arizona. Let's look at some of the claims. It says it gives back $300 million a year. Correct or not?

>> Mary Jo: That figure comes from estimates done by government agencies, not by the racetracks, so everybody is agreeing to that figure. The devil is in the details. $200 million of that would come from a 40% tax on racetrack slot machines. $100 million would come from a contribution from the tribal casinos. And the Indian tribes say, ain't gonna happen. If 201 passes, you're not going to get the tribal portion because these are not voluntary agreements that tribes have been consulted on, unlike their own propositions, so you back out 5 $100 million and this is very debatable. That leaves you with $200 million, of which $43 million is earmarked for deficit reduction which is the big selling point of 201. The rest of the money is locked into various state programs. To the extent that the legislature doesn't spend money on those programs and uses this instead it could help to close the budget gap.

>> Michael: That seems to be the approach du jour, earmarking funds from various propositions for targeted purposes.

>> Mary Jo: Very much. Most people believe that's an easier sale to the general public because there is a general mistrust of the legislature. In fact, the Kritz, as we'll see, ran an ad to that point.

>> Michael: One of the other claims in the ad is that it's the only one that helps all of us. Is that claim accurate?

>> Mary Jo: I don't think it's accurate because the other two propositions from the Indian tribes have a share of revenue that would go to statewide programs, education, healthcare, that are not exclusive to native Americans. It would benefit all Arizonans.

>> Michael: Certainly the production values on this particular ad -- and incidentally, we'll get to its -- I guess we should say Heritage or derivation in a few minutes, but the production ads value on this thing are very slick.

>> Mary Jo: Yeah, it -- the backers of them are very proud because they feel it does rise above sort of the din of your normal campaign commercial. You've got a standup comedian invoking patriotic themes. It's caught a lot of attention and I would say that as of today, Joe Arizona is the single most identifiable figure in the whole gambling debate in Arizona.

>> Michael: As long as we're doing accuracy here, are the visuals accurate, particularly in relation to the canyon that is depicted in the ad?

>> Mary Jo: Well, this was a report from "The Arizona Daily Star". They talked to some geologists who said no, this is Dead Horse Point in Utah. The prop 201 people say, look, it was clip art, it was labeled Grand Canyon. They don't know if it's the canyon or not. It gets the idea across.

>> Michael: This could be a canyon anywhere in the western United States?

>> Probably Moab, Utah.

>> Michael: Now the 17-tribe coalition countered with the first vote no ad. It is a response to Joe Arizona.

>> Announcer: This character says he is from Arizona and stands in front of Arizona images, but what's behind him? These ads are paid for by rich racetrack owners in Florida, New York, and California who are pushing prop 201 because 201 would let them turn their Arizona tracks into giant casinos. 201 benefits the out-of-state racetrack owners, but it's a bad deal for Arizona. Vote no on 201.

>> Michael: Okay, out-of-state racetrack owners, true?

>> Mary Jo: Generally. For the racetracks that are funding this prop 201, their owners are out of state. There is a couple of tracks, Yuma, which is locally owned. The Yavapai and Rialto Downs are owned by county governments and nonprofits, but generally, yes, out of state ownership.

>> Michael: They also talk about the racetracks wanting giant Las~Vegas casinos. Is that accurate?

>> Mary Jo: Again, you know, "giant" maybe is a relative term. The racetracks want 950 slot machines. The tribes want 998 for themselves. So if it's giant for the racetracks, it's giant for the tribes as well.

>> Michael: Incidentally, Mary Jo, a further clarification on that point, would the so-called racinos, they would not have table games at all; correct?

>> Mary Jo: Correct, they would not. And some people argue you don't have a casino until you have slot machines plus table games.

>> Michael: Now, one of the -- well, proposition 200 and 202, you know, the numbers are very difficult to keep in mind. Those both authorized not only table games for the tribes, but also expanded forms of gaming, the Colorado initiative going the furthest?

>> Mary Jo: Correct. It would authorize all forms of gaming, craps, roulette, et cetera. Prop 202 keeps it to poker and blackjack.

>> Michael: One of the other themes that has been hit in the response series of ads that actually both the Colorado River Indian tribe and the 17 tribes have been running is this theme of, well, don't give the money to the state general fund, earmark it for specific purposes, and they touch a very sensitive issue in the alt fuels debate.

>> Mary Jo: Yes, they do.

>> Michael: Is that -- I suppose it's accurate from the standpoint that some of the proceeds are going to the state general fund. I assume maybe the tracks would perhaps take issue with the fairness of that particular approach?

>> Mary Jo: Right, and I think that the tracks' approach fits perfectly into current events. We have a big budget deficit in the state. The current Governor saying she's going to find a way to close the books for this year, but it's a looming black hole. If somebody steps forward and says here's a way we can help to fill that hole, that has some appeal to voters, especially if you say -- if you try to tell them this might defray the push to raise taxes.

>> Michael: Interestingly enough, when the majority of tribes had the negotiated compacts in front of the legislature, they did not earmark the proceeds at all, did they?

>> Mary Jo: No, well, except for the part that went for regulation, the rest would have flowed straight into the general fund.

>> Michael: The theory being when you go to the voters, however, it's best to -- and you can argue about whether or not it should be education, elder healthcare or prescription drugs but somehow earmark it.

>> Mary Jo: Correct. When was the last time we've had a general tax increase? It has been earmarked for education or smoking prevention.

>> Michael: The Colorado Indian tribes are sponsoring proposition 200. It would expand casino style gaming on reservations, relax some of the regulatory requirements, and pay for college scholarships and elder healthcare from its profits. Here's a look at a couple of the ads urging you to vote yes on proposition 200.

>> Announcer: For more than a decade, Arizonans have supported tribal gaming. It's time tribal gaming started supporting Arizona. Prop 200 creates 18,000 college scholarships. Prop 200 provides millions for senior healthcare. Yes on prop 200. Better for Indians, better for Arizona. >> Announcer: Why did they invent tribal gaming? To raise more tax dollars for bureaucrats? Or raise more Indians from poverty? Yes on prop 200. Better for Indians. Better for Arizona.

>> Michael: Second ad pretty emotional approach.

>> Mary Jo: Yes, pretty much in line with the theme we've seen coming from the Kritz. They've used the emotional approach.

>> Michael: Interestingly enough, though, it seems that the two ads are arguing with each other. The first one is starting out saying, you know, it's time for gaming to help the state, and then arguing then in the second ad, we want to keep a lot more of the money.

>> Mary Jo: Right. It shows some of the tension and the debates, the Kritz more than anybody argue that look, tribal gaming was created to help tribes, not to help private businesses, not to help bail state governments out of a black hole. But they also realize that to sell their thing to the public, you've got to offer a little more than just tribal self-sufficiency.

>> Michael: A couple of the claims, 18,000 college scholarships. Is there a way to verify the accuracy of that?

>> Mary Jo: If you work through the math and their assumptions, you get to 18,000. The college scholarships are tuition, only, not a full ride, just in case anybody is making college plans on that.

>> Michael: Some of those are earmarked for Indians and some of them are earmarked for Anglos; correct?

>> Mary Jo: Well, 60% for university scholarships and 40% for community college and tribal college scholarships. It's mixed in there together. There is a smaller percentage that would pay just for Native American scholarships. So the numbers work out if you believe their revenue assumptions. If you take the revenue assumptions of the government agencies, which are lower, you're going to get a smaller number of scholarships, but still, played against the whole pool of eligible students, it would be a big dent.

>> Michael: Would there be millions of dollars for elder healthcare allowing for 18,000 college scholarships? Is there enough in there?

>> Mary Jo: Right, yeah. There is not a conflict between them the way they set it up, and it would raise, depending on whose estimates, from $2 million to $5.5 million for elder healthcare.

>> Michael: If I recall correctly, Mary Jo, the JLBC estimates about $30 million, $32 million from this one?

>> Mary Jo: $32 million, yeah.

>> Michael: The issue that I have heard from a number of people is it is a fuzzy definition of precisely what the pot is that you apply the percentage against.

>> Mary Jo: Right this is debated aright. The Kritz would take their share from profits and it would be 3% of their properties. First you take money off to pay the state for regulation, then you take 3% of your profits and use it for scholarships and elderly healthcare. What's a profit? How do you define what is profit? Especially when you have casinos with other operations, restaurants, bars, that's debatable. 12

>> Michael: And they pretty much just leave that to further negotiation, don't they? In fact, this initiative probably is the least defined of the three from those details; correct?

>> Mary Jo: Yes, prop 200 is a general framework, and it hinges very much on tribes and the Governor sitting down and negotiating out the details. It provides them a framework for doing that. There is lots of blanks to fill in.

>> Michael: The focus of ad watch, of course is accuracy. We're not grading for originality. If we were, one of the ads we have seen tonight would not make the grade. Remember Joe Arizona? Now take a look at this ad. You may remember it, it sells beer.

>> Announcer: Hey, I'm not a lumberjack or a fur trader. I don't live in an igloo or eat blubber or own a dog sled, and I don't know Jimmy, Sally or Susie from Canada, although I'm certain they are really, really nice. I have a prime minister, not a president. I speak English and French, not American, and I pronounce it "about", not "a boot". I can proudly show my country's flag on my backpack. I believe in peacekeeping, not policing; diversity not assimilation, and that the beaver is a truly proud and noble animal. And it is pronounced "zed", not "zee". Canada is the second largest land mass, the first nation of hockey, and the best part of North America! My name is Joe, and I am Canadian! Thank you.

>> Michael: Joe Arizona meets Joe Canada?

>> Mary Jo: I don't know if they've met, but they share similar creative ideas.

>> Michael: Well, they obviously took Jo Arizona almost word for word from that ad. Did they admit that?

>> Mary Jo: Oh, yeah. And there's no -- it's all out in the public domain. There is no copyright on intellectual property, and this Molson ad has been widely parodied. This is a home grown one with all of the Arizona touches.

>> Michael: It definitely -- the actor appearing on the Molson ad is much more animated than Joe Arizona. That's not a criticism of Joe Arizona, I think he delivers the lines nicely, but this guy goes whacko.

>> Mary Jo: He's defending a whole nation.

>> Michael: All right, Mary Jo, we appreciate your joining us, taking a look at the ads and we'll check on ad accuracy throughout the campaign season.

>> Mary Jo: Many more to come.

>> Michael: If you are looking for more information about the ballot propositions, we have summaries on the "Horizon" Web site. Our Web site is a great place to find all kinds of election information. Go to www.kaet.asu.edu., click on "Horizon" and follow the links.

>>> Michael: It's the oldest continuously used public building in Arizona, and it is unfortunately showing its age. However, there are efforts underway to renovate the Florence courthouse. Last week the Arizona Heritage fund for historic preservation awarded Pinal County $100,000, enough to fix the clock tower, even more money could be approved from the town of Florence construction tax. Videographer Carol Lynde and producer Mike Sauceda tell us more about the problems at the old Florence courthouse.

>> Reporter Sauceda: Time stands still at the old Pinal county courthouse in Florence, at least on the stamp metal clock faces.

>> Ernie Feliz: There's never been clocks in the clock tower. There wasn't enough money, and so they brought in clock facings and these are made of pressed metal.

>> Reporter Sauceda: Some folks think the clocks read 11:44, others 9:00 or 11:43. There is one version of why the hands rest where they do.

>> John Swearengin: When they built this courthouse, they set the time on there at about a quarter to 12 so people coming into town would know that they could come to the courthouse and get their business done before they shut it down at noon time.

>> Reporter Sauceda: But there is no doubt time has been flying for the rest of the structure. The oldest continuously used public building in Arizona. The 111-year-old courthouse was built in 1891 for $29,000.

>> John Swearengin: This was the second courthouse that the county built. This is the third courthouse they used. They rented the first one which was an Adobe building, but the second one or the first one they built was McFarland state park now.

>> Reporter Sauceda: The courthouse was constructed to show that the county was planning to prosper, even though the curtains in the clock tower are actually just paint.

>> Ernie Feliz: This is American victorian architectural style. It's a little bit later in the period when we began to see -- we're getting away from Adobe construction, and we're able to -- you know, we have a railroad now and we can bring in materials from other parts of the country.

>> Reporter Sauceda: The building is rich in architectural detail. The work abounds throughout. Some of the original door knobs are still in use, not something you can get at Lowe's. Feliz, whose family has lived in Florence as long as the courthouse has been around, has fond memories of the building, especially the staircase.

>> Ernie Feliz: I'm talking 5 years old my mother brought me in here, walked in and I saw that split staircase, that was something I wanted to run up and down all day on because it just looked so fabulous, you know?

>> Reporter Sauceda: But the building where Swearengin worked as a clerk of the court in the 1940s is falling apart.

>> John Swearengin: The only thing it's done since really since I worked here was deteriorate more or less because like me, it got older and you have to allow certain deterioration.

>> Ernie Feliz: The most pressing problem is the clock tower and the copula. The problem is -- Gerald Doyle did a study on the clock tower. He is an architect in Phoenix. He explained that it wasn't constructed very well to begin with, and then over time, it's just gotten worn and worn and worn. The issue is, is that it tends to sway, and it could fall down. Now, there's that, and then there's the roof which is in bad need of repair. It leaks.

>> Reporter Sauceda: The clock tower is held together in some places by bailing wire.

>> Ernie Feliz: What we want to do with the clock tower is fabricate a steel structure that will attach to the frame and shore up the clock tower so it'll stay in place, and then we want to go onto the roof and repair the roof, so that it doesn't leak.

>> Reporter Sauceda: Feliz hopes to raise $2.5 million to renovate the old courthouse and help continue it's reign as the State's oldest continuously used public building. It will cost $100,000 to fix the clock tower. Another big problem is the attic which has been weighed down by the clock tower. In the 1950s, county supervisors wanted to cut off the clock tower, but citizens fought that as they fought a move in the '90s to put real clocks in the clock tower. The solution to the sagging roof was to jack it up from the basement and brace the attic with numerous boards. It was a temporary solution that's lasted over 40 years. A more permanent solution using the same steel structure as the clock tower is going to be expensive.

>> Ernie Feliz: The roof is estimated right now, the cost of the repairs is about $800,000, between the clock tower and the roof. And that's quite a bit more than what we have available to spend right now.

>> Reporter Sauceda: Once they get off the roof, there are other renovations to consider, like making the building ADA compatible, putting in a sprinkler system, and addressing heating, cooling, plumbing and electrical problems, as well as bringing the old building up to date. >> Ernie Feliz: In the year 2002, there is a lot of issues of technology that we have to address. We have to bring it up to date so that we can use computers in here, and we can use telephone lines, and so there's a lot of electrical issues to address.

>> Reporter Sauceda: The total cost of renovations depends on which plan the county decides to use. The most complete renovation would involve taking away parts of the building built after 1891, especially the parts where the brick and motar don't match the original. That would restore the building to its original cross shape.

>> Ernie Feliz: Complete restoration would involve removing the additions of 1982, 1975, 1933 and 1917, so, then you would have the cross-shaped building and 15,000 18 square feet. If you go back to -- then the other alternative was keeping 1917 and getting rid of all of the other additions. And then the third alternative was to keep 1933 and get rid of the two later additions. The fourth alternative was to keep all of the additions.

>> Reporter Sauceda: The old courthouse in Florence has seen a lot of history. Trunk murderess Winnie Ruth Judd had a sanity hearing there. The last stagecoach robber in America had her trial in it, and there is talk of ghosts.

>> John Swearengin: The one thing that I can say there might be a ghost somewhere in there, it's not the ghost, really, it's the ones who are left behind in the cemetery. This building sits on what used to be the town cemetery, and when they took all of the bodies out, they missed a few naturally, because a lot of them weren't marked. And some of those ghosts may be floating around in there. That's the only basis for our ghost story that I know of from this building here.

>> Reporter Sauceda: But ghosts don't stop people from loving the old courthouse.

>> John Swearengin: I love this place. You know, it's a treasure for the whole county and for the state, really. The people in Florence particularly, because it's part of our lives.

>> Michael: Tomorrow on "Horizon," we'll hear about propositions 203 and 302, which deal with the state's marijuana laws and Friday our reporters 19 take on the week's top stories on "Horizon's" journalists' roundtable. Thank you for joining us on this Wednesday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a very pleasant one. Good night.